Why Ghost is Hard to Fight

[Setery]

Spoiler: Old Thread

The New Knockback System

• With the new modified knockback system, Ghosts have many new advantages at their disposal.
  
  Players now take more knockback than what they should normally take when jumping. Many times I have seen people get launched around 6 - 8 blocks horizontally from swords without the knockback enchantment if the person being hit was jumping. The reason this is strong is because many of the maps on the server have void pits. Ghosts can take advantage of this when a team is retreating and easily launch any kit of their choosing off the map (except Jugg). Players have to now risk letting a Ghost catch up to them by only sprinting and not sprint jumping, or they have to risk the chance that a Ghost could launch them off the map with one hit when they're sprint jumping. Ghosts can also use this knockback in fights so that it's harder to be combo'd on. Ghosts get hit further away from players now which make it harder to track down the Ghost with follow-up hits.
• Sprint Particles are not Always Accurate
  • There are a few bugs within 1.15 related to sprint particles
    
    There are situations such as when a Ghost is sprint jumping where they actually don't show sprint particles. Normally a Ghost would show particles when they hit the ground while sprint jumping.
• Ghosts Have a Frame Advantage
  • Since Ghosts are invisible, sometimes it's not humanly possible to react to a sword that appears for a short amount of frames.
    
    This conversation on it's own regarding human reaction time relating to frames could be an entire thread. By "frames", I'm referring to the frames in "frames per second". A really good Ghost player can be essentially invisible to the reaction time of an opponent. They can make their sword appear and swing in only a few amount of frames. This video shows the first Ghost hit in 6 frames and the second hit in 10 frames. These are literally impossible to react to. What I mean by this, is that the Trooper cannot look at the sword and decide to swing upon that Ghost while that sword is still visible. There's multiple other factors that can cause the Trooper not to hit the Ghost in time such as input lag, but if we solely look at reaction time, then the Trooper stands no chance at hitting the Ghost while their sword is still out in these situations.
    

How to Fix These Issues

*note don't implement all of these changes, only implement one or the other*

1. Adjust the knockback for players that are in the air. The knockback currently seems to be too strong. I believe it needs to be toned down a little to make the sprint jumping retreat disadvantage not as harsh.
2. Unfortunately I don't think 1.15 related bugs can be fixed
3. Give Ghost an aura similar to Wraith for 0.25 seconds but with different particles focused on the feet (time can be adjusted but I think 0.25 seconds is fair) when they pull out their sword. If a Ghost decides to continue to hold their sword after 0.25 seconds, then aura will go away.

Why These Changes will Fix these Issues

1. The knockback changes would be universal and cause less unfair deaths from happening all because a player jumped and got launched off the map because of it.
2. The aura on Ghost when they pull out their sword will help to prevent fights where Ghosts can literally not be reacted upon. This makes it to where Ghost can't essentially fight someone near head on for an entire fight as they can be tracked more easily.

I put a good amount of time into this thread. Even if you agree please provide feedback, thanks.
*Edited the suggestions slightly*

Never mind I spank ghosts on the daily

 

[AwNoodles]

Knockback is perfect. Totally not saying that cause I abuse ghost.

 

[Woaxa]

The problem with knockback is that there wasnt a system implemented at all before hand, it sucked you would basically take negative knockback. Can the current system be improved? Definitely, but is it way better than what it was before? Definitely. The sprint particles bug works the other way too where it shows particles when the ghost is not sprinting, I'm not saying that makes it fair and should stay that way just pointing it out but I do believe those are 1.15 bugs so idk what can really be done about them. I don't believe ghost needs any sort of aura, giving it anything of that sort would hurt it greatly, if you're losing 1v1's to ghosts often I don't think its that ghost is strong,,,,,, no offense.

 

[Setery]

The problem with knockback is that there wasnt a system implemented at all before hand, it sucked you would basically take negative knockback. Can the current system be improved? Definitely, but is it way better than what it was before? Definitely. The sprint particles bug works the other way too where it shows particles when the ghost is not sprinting, I'm not saying that makes it fair and should stay that way just pointing it out but I do believe those are 1.15 bugs so idk what can really be done about them. I don't believe ghost needs any sort of aura, giving it anything of that sort would hurt it greatly, if you're losing 1v1's to ghosts often I don't think its that ghost is strong,,,,,, no offense.

So you're saying to keep it the same? Do you understand that Ghosts can literally attack you and hide their sword before you can even register that it happened?

 

[Woaxa]

So you're saying to keep it the same? Do you understand that Ghosts can literally attack you and hide their sword before you can even register that it happened?

I have played only a little bit of snd but yes I understand what you’re trying to say, but in practice it’s far from that. Minecraft is out here telling you the direction you took the damage from, the ghost isn’t going very far. I have no problem dealing with ghosts and plenty of others don’t either. I believe ghost is in a fine place right now a nerf is not something it needs.

 

[Triggs]

TBH, ghost really isn't that difficult to play against. A large majority of the players I play against know exactly how to fight against ghosts and execute on it perfectly...

I didn't really think it was necessary, but do I need to make a "how to play against ghost" video? Is it smooth brain hours already?

 

[PaintersDaughter]

So you're saying to keep it the same? Do you understand that Ghosts can literally attack you and hide their sword before you can even register that it happened?

That's what.... that's what the kit ghost is meant for... What are we supposed to do, run around with our sword out? No! If you are losing that many 1v1s to ghosts, you might wanna try a different kit, it ain't the ghost that's the problem.

 

[Setery]

TBH, ghost really isn't that difficult to play against. A large majority of the players I play against know exactly how to fight against ghosts and execute on it perfectly...

I didn't really think it was necessary, but do I need to make a "how to play against ghost" video? Is it smooth brain hours already?

Thank you for the really helpful feedback, thanks for essentially calling me an idiot. Go be useful somewhere else.

That's what.... that's what the kit ghost is meant for... What are we supposed to do, run around with our sword out? No! If you are losing that many 1v1s to ghosts, you might wanna try a different kit, it ain't the ghost that's the problem.

I can kill average to good ghost players, but there can always be an exception. Some people may have some really good mouse setups where they can basically roll their fingers down 3 keys at a time which will swap to weapon, attack, and swap to an empty slot in the matter of a few milliseconds. It's impossible to react to, and along with the additional knockback that players now take, it gets hard to chase them down.

I have played only a little bit of snd but yes I understand what you’re trying to say, but in practice it’s far from that. Minecraft is out here telling you the direction you took the damage from, the ghost isn’t going very far. I have no problem dealing with ghosts and plenty of others don’t either. I believe ghost is in a fine place right now a nerf is not something it needs.

Check the response to Paint it's basically the same response I would have given you.

 

[PaintersDaughter]

Thank you for the really helpful feedback, thanks for essentially calling me an idiot. Go be useful somewhere else.


I can kill average to good ghost players, but there can always be an exception. Some people may have some really good mouse setups where they can basically roll their fingers down 3 keys at a time which will swap to weapon, attack, and swap to an empty slot in the matter of a few milliseconds. It's impossible to react to, and along with the additional knockback that players now take, it gets hard to chase them down.



Check the response to Paint it's basically the same response I would have given you.

Good you admitted that there are a few EXCEPTIONS. Don't be acting like it's the whole kit. Demo is pretty hard to kill I'm gonna make a thread about how we need to change it brb

 

[Pandu]

Good you admitted that there are a few EXCEPTIONS. Don't be acting like it's the whole kit. Demo is pretty hard to kill I'm gonna make a thread about how we need to change it brb

demo isnt hard to kill.

 

[Woaxa]

So you’re saying in rare cases a player can do multiple inputs at a fast rate consistently must mean the kit is OP rather than the player just being good? Either way seeing the sword or not the game tells you the direction you were attacked from. Its just a learning curve, I’d like to think I’m a better than average player but I can’t play ghost at all. That doesn’t mean ghost should get buffed simply because I have no idea how to play it.

Side note I feel like I’m clogging this thread so if you wanna talk more about it feel free to dm me on discord or start a private convo on here or smth.

 

[Setery]

So you’re saying in rare cases a player can do multiple inputs at a fast rate consistently must mean the kit is OP rather than the player just being good? Either way seeing the sword or not the game tells you the direction you were attacked from. Its just a learning curve, I’d like to think I’m a better than average player but I can’t play ghost at all. That doesn’t mean ghost should get buffed simply because I have no idea how to play it.

Side note I feel like I’m clogging this thread so if you wanna talk more about it feel free to dm me on discord or start a private convo on here or smth.

There's really no point to hiding the conversation btw. It's not the fact of a bunch of inputs, it's that at its maximum a ghost is borderline unkillable as it's impossible to react to, you have to rely entirely on prediction. But the main point of this thread is to point out that due to the changes to KB, Ghost is able to poke damage more easily with a lot less risk. The kit is just straight up easier to play as, and harder to play against. It's near impossible to track ghosts when you hit them back. Their particles are less visible and they get launched further when hit.

 

[Woaxa]

There's really no point to hiding the conversation btw. It's not the fact of a bunch of inputs, it's that at its maximum a ghost is borderline unkillable as it's impossible to react to, you have to rely entirely on prediction. But the main point of this thread is to point out that due to the changes to KB, Ghost is able to poke damage more easily with a lot less risk. The kit is just straight up easier to play as, and harder to play against. It's near impossible to track ghosts when you hit them back. Their particles are less visible and they get launched further when hit.

There’s nothing for me to say that’s not already in my previous posts. KB can be adjusted more yeah, it’s a process getting it just right. The other points though I’m just not vibing with.

 

[PaintersDaughter]

There’s nothing for me to say that’s not already in my previous posts. KB can be adjusted more yeah, it’s a process getting it just right. The other points though I’m just not vibing with.

my point exactly lol

 

[toomuchzelda]

yes, a good ghost is unreactable. holding the sword and switching it away as quickly as you detailed in the video, isnt particularly hard either.

it would be nice to ensure they hold their sword out for some time.

i thought a good way to do this is have ghost play with the vanilla combat. so their sword would have to be out for a short time before it can hurt anyone effectively. of course, they can still hide the sword immediately after a swing. so if the player they attacked wasnt paying attention, they still would not see the ghost directly. which i think is nice.

 

[Katielette]

First of all... idk how hard it is for you to play against a kit that has NO armor and an OK sword... but are you seriously getting mad that ghost players killed you in a game that is meant for killing o-o You can't punish someone for being good at their kit. If so, then we might as well nerf the rest of the kits as well. It's a block game... it's not that big of a deal.

And for the record, some people don't have expensive set ups.. ik a good ghost player that plays with a track pad and another with an apple magic mouse that you can't even left click on.

P.S. We also don't understand your decision to be rude to those who disagree with you. If you can't handle criticism, then maybe you shouldn't be posting on an open thread.

Love,
Bayzel, Hyacinthos, MysticWonders, and Katielette <3

 

[Smalusion]

Ghost is a very, very fragile kit. While it's true used at its absolute maximum potential it can be difficult to fight, do remember it dies extremely easily. All it takes is 3-4 sword swings from most kits! In comparison,
I believe it takes about 7-8 hits from a Ghost to kill a Trooper, not counting any absorption hearts or regen.

From my own experience, Ghost does its best as a sort of offensive support, turning what appears to be a 1v1 into a 2v1, or securing a kill on someone who runs into you due to not knowing of your presence. An actual 1v1 as Ghost is much riskier, but a good user can be very strong as it, as seen in your video. Of course, a single mistake and you're likely doomed. Cramped spaces are also scary for Ghosts, as there's less space to dodge or hide...

However, Search and Destroy is not about 1v1s and 2v1s. It's a team game, with large groups of players fighting other groups of players. And that is where Ghost is weak. While a Trooper can easily participate in a group fight thanks to its strong gear, a Ghost is easily hit and killed in the chaos, regardless of if it pulls out a weapon or not. A group of Ghosts can take out lone targets one by one with ease, but they can't do much at all against groups of players. For example, taking out a Medic is easy if they're alone, but if they have even a single teammate dedicated to their protection, it gets complicated. If they're in a larger group of allies, it becomes nearly impossible.

A group of Ghosts can't do anything against a group of Troopers unless the latter group spreads out, to be killed one by one. In general, Ghosts can't do much against groups of other kits. If you load into a game and see the majority of your team are Ghosts, chances are high that you're not very happy. Chances are higher that you're going to lose, unless the enemy team decides that rushing you 1 at a time is a good strategy (it isn't).

We can also compare Ghost to Wraith, a kit which I often hear is said to be underpowered. Played to its full potential, it can kill a Trooper in 3-4 shots, without the Trooper even landing a single hit on the Wraith due to it easily repositioning itself with invisibility. It can kill a Demo with ease, the kit that's basically the anti-Ghost kit. And that's with it having an aura. Yet, users rarely have any impact on a game. Would Wraith need a nerf, because of the absolute maximum potential users can reach?

Personally, I think no. There are outliers, but they are by far not the norm.

I'll address the Ghost-specific change you suggested.

Give Ghost an aura similar to Wraith for 1 second

I believe this would be an extremely heavy nerf to the kit. Wraith has the aura as it snipes from a distance and can re-position after each shot, with the trail being there so that you can at least tell the area of where the arrow came from.
Ghost doesn't have the luxury of distance. If it had the aura, it would be extremely easy to kill. As others have mention, you can tell where the Ghost was by just looking the opposite of where you got knocked back. In a cramped area, it's not that hard to spam hit and get a lucky hit. In an open area, well, Ghosts have the advantage there.

If Ghost had an aura that persisted for one second, it would need some sort of armor buff, like full or partial leather. Invisible of course. Just something to allow it to take slightly more hits in exchange for being easier to hit. Otherwise, it's a very harsh nerf to a kit that doesn't need a nerf right now.

These thoughts are from my experience playing Ghost sometimes. Not a Ghost main, but I do play it frequently.
They may or may not reflect the thoughts of other staff. I'll see if I can get Night's thoughts, he's an actual Ghost main!

Final note, thanks for the thread. I appreciate a good discussion about kit balancing.

ps its 6am so if parts of this don't make sense let me know

 

[Pandu]

ps its 6am so if parts of this don't make sense let me know

you said you were going to sleep at 4 smh

 

[Setery]

First of all... idk how hard it is for you to play against a kit that has NO armor and an OK sword... but are you seriously getting mad that ghost players killed you in a game that is meant for killing o-o You can't punish someone for being good at their kit. If so, then we might as well nerf the rest of the kits as well. It's a block game... it's not that big of a deal.

And for the record, some people don't have expensive set ups.. ik a good ghost player that plays with a track pad and another with an apple magic mouse that you can't even left click on.

P.S. We also don't understand your decision to be rude to those who disagree with you. If you can't handle criticism, then maybe you shouldn't be posting on an open thread.

Love,
Bayzel, Hyacinthos, MysticWonders, and Katielette <3

? Did you read literally anything that I posted, also spam disliking wasn't warranted (you all disliked at literally the same time).

Ghost is a very, very fragile kit. While it's true used at its absolute maximum potential it can be difficult to fight, do remember it dies extremely easily. All it takes is 3-4 sword swings from most kits! In comparison,
I believe it takes about 7-8 hits from a Ghost to kill a Trooper, not counting any absorption hearts or regen.

From my own experience, Ghost does its best as a sort of offensive support, turning what appears to be a 1v1 into a 2v1, or securing a kill on someone who runs into you due to not knowing of your presence. An actual 1v1 as Ghost is much riskier, but a good user can be very strong as it, as seen in your video. Of course, a single mistake and you're likely doomed. Cramped spaces are also scary for Ghosts, as there's less space to dodge or hide...

However, Search and Destroy is not about 1v1s and 2v1s. It's a team game, with large groups of players fighting other groups of players. And that is where Ghost is weak. While a Trooper can easily participate in a group fight thanks to its strong gear, a Ghost is easily hit and killed in the chaos, regardless of if it pulls out a weapon or not. A group of Ghosts can take out lone targets one by one with ease, but they can't do much at all against groups of players. For example, taking out a Medic is easy if they're alone, but if they have even a single teammate dedicated to their protection, it gets complicated. If they're in a larger group of allies, it becomes nearly impossible.

A group of Ghosts can't do anything against a group of Troopers unless the latter group spreads out, to be killed one by one. In general, Ghosts can't do much against groups of other kits. If you load into a game and see the majority of your team are Ghosts, chances are high that you're not very happy. Chances are higher that you're going to lose, unless the enemy team decides that rushing you 1 at a time is a good strategy (it isn't).

We can also compare Ghost to Wraith, a kit which I often hear is said to be underpowered. Played to its full potential, it can kill a Trooper in 3-4 shots, without the Trooper even landing a single hit on the Wraith due to it easily repositioning itself with invisibility. It can kill a Demo with ease, the kit that's basically the anti-Ghost kit. And that's with it having an aura. Yet, users rarely have any impact on a game. Would Wraith need a nerf, because of the absolute maximum potential users can reach?

Personally, I think no. There are outliers, but they are by far not the norm.

I'll address the Ghost-specific change you suggested.


I believe this would be an extremely heavy nerf to the kit. Wraith has the aura as it snipes from a distance and can re-position after each shot, with the trail being there so that you can at least tell the area of where the arrow came from.
Ghost doesn't have the luxury of distance. If it had the aura, it would be extremely easy to kill. As others have mention, you can tell where the Ghost was by just looking the opposite of where you got knocked back. In a cramped area, it's not that hard to spam hit and get a lucky hit. In an open area, well, Ghosts have the advantage there.

If Ghost had an aura that persisted for one second, it would need some sort of armor buff, like full or partial leather. Invisible of course. Just something to allow it to take slightly more hits in exchange for being easier to hit. Otherwise, it's a very harsh nerf to a kit that doesn't need a nerf right now.

These thoughts are from my experience playing Ghost sometimes. Not a Ghost main, but I do play it frequently.
They may or may not reflect the thoughts of other staff. I'll see if I can get Night's thoughts, he's an actual Ghost main!

Final note, thanks for the thread. I appreciate a good discussion about kit balancing.

ps its 6am so if parts of this don't make sense let me know

Ghost is a very, very fragile kit. While it's true used at its absolute maximum potential it can be difficult to fight, do remember it dies extremely easily. All it takes is 3-4 sword swings from most kits! In comparison,
I believe it takes about 7-8 hits from a Ghost to kill a Trooper, not counting any absorption hearts or regen.

From my own experience, Ghost does its best as a sort of offensive support, turning what appears to be a 1v1 into a 2v1, or securing a kill on someone who runs into you due to not knowing of your presence. An actual 1v1 as Ghost is much riskier, but a good user can be very strong as it, as seen in your video. Of course, a single mistake and you're likely doomed. Cramped spaces are also scary for Ghosts, as there's less space to dodge or hide...

However, Search and Destroy is not about 1v1s and 2v1s. It's a team game, with large groups of players fighting other groups of players. And that is where Ghost is weak. While a Trooper can easily participate in a group fight thanks to its strong gear, a Ghost is easily hit and killed in the chaos, regardless of if it pulls out a weapon or not. A group of Ghosts can take out lone targets one by one with ease, but they can't do much at all against groups of players. For example, taking out a Medic is easy if they're alone, but if they have even a single teammate dedicated to their protection, it gets complicated. If they're in a larger group of allies, it becomes nearly impossible.

A group of Ghosts can't do anything against a group of Troopers unless the latter group spreads out, to be killed one by one. In general, Ghosts can't do much against groups of other kits. If you load into a game and see the majority of your team are Ghosts, chances are high that you're not very happy. Chances are higher that you're going to lose, unless the enemy team decides that rushing you 1 at a time is a good strategy (it isn't).

We can also compare Ghost to Wraith, a kit which I often hear is said to be underpowered. Played to its full potential, it can kill a Trooper in 3-4 shots, without the Trooper even landing a single hit on the Wraith due to it easily repositioning itself with invisibility. It can kill a Demo with ease, the kit that's basically the anti-Ghost kit. And that's with it having an aura. Yet, users rarely have any impact on a game. Would Wraith need a nerf, because of the absolute maximum potential users can reach?

Personally, I think no. There are outliers, but they are by far not the norm.

I'll address the Ghost-specific change you suggested.


I believe this would be an extremely heavy nerf to the kit. Wraith has the aura as it snipes from a distance and can re-position after each shot, with the trail being there so that you can at least tell the area of where the arrow came from.
Ghost doesn't have the luxury of distance. If it had the aura, it would be extremely easy to kill. As others have mention, you can tell where the Ghost was by just looking the opposite of where you got knocked back. In a cramped area, it's not that hard to spam hit and get a lucky hit. In an open area, well, Ghosts have the advantage there.

If Ghost had an aura that persisted for one second, it would need some sort of armor buff, like full or partial leather. Invisible of course. Just something to allow it to take slightly more hits in exchange for being easier to hit. Otherwise, it's a very harsh nerf to a kit that doesn't need a nerf right now.

These thoughts are from my experience playing Ghost sometimes. Not a Ghost main, but I do play it frequently.
They may or may not reflect the thoughts of other staff. I'll see if I can get Night's thoughts, he's an actual Ghost main!

Final note, thanks for the thread. I appreciate a good discussion about kit balancing.

ps its 6am so if parts of this don't make sense let me know

I think I'll test around on some specific particle effects so I can get a proof of concpet. I would have to agree that getting a copy of Wraith's particle effect would ruin the class. I have a few ideas like foot step particles, but some of those stay around for a while so I'll see how it goes. Also the timer of 1 second could be nerfed to 1/4th of a second.

 

[Triggs]

I'm sorry my post wasn't super informative that's my bad.

Good ghost players (imo) know how to take advantage of the terrain and stuff around them to gain advantages in the fight. Just like I wouldn't fight a marine in water, maybe not fighting a ghost in an open area? I know that they can sneak up on you and that makes it difficult to actively engage in fights, but simply running away to a better terrain or chokepoint could be really helpful. This can also help with the reaction time issue, because if you corner them or bring them into a choke point you know exactly where they are or will be.

In general ghosts don't sprint, so if they sprint after you, you can easily know where they are. The combo-ing and knockback definitely should be looked at, but changing the kit ghost to compensate I think is attacking the problem rather than attacking the root of the problem.

From personal and anecdotal experience, anyone who does the two of those strategies completely destroy me or live to fight another day (probably killing me later in the match), but I have also seen a lot of people simply try to fight ghosts in really open areas (i.e. mid on beanstalks) where the ghost really has the advantage.

I hope that was informative enough and we can actually have a conversation about this because if there really is an issue with the kit it should be addressed, but if the problem is lack of creativity and adapting to new play styles, I think that isn't a kit issue.

EDIT: If you don't agree with my points in this post, probably ignore this edit (not because I don't think you'll agree with this edit, just because this edit will become useless if proper reasoning is put forward proving me wrong), but if a ghost is that good, and the other player doesn't know how to play against it, should the ghost not be rewarded with the kill? I think the great thing about SnD is the flexibility within kits allowing different play styles. Not every 1v1 is built to be fair because (as smalusion mentioned) this is a team game.