Unpopular Balancing Ideas

[Setery]

All bow kits (minus Longbow and Arbalist) need to be reined in:
-Shortbow Power 2->Power 1
-Burst Explosion damage reduced
-Pyro Flame 2 -> Flame 1

Ghost should be removed, not because it's unbalanced, but because it makes gameplay extremely unfun for visible classes without access to fire. 90% of the time people will be swinging randomly just to not get ganged up on by more than 2 ghosts.

Dwarf should also be removed, the class is bad even revamps to this are unlikely to make it a fair/balanced class. All this class is useful for is drawing games to poison/nuke which isn't generally fun.

Explosive should have reduced grenade and rpg damage, rpg can get a minor speed buff. High burst damage is not fun to play against. This class also has too much control on many of the maps in the game.

Medic heals also need to be reined in, AOE healing is a bit too strong even with the mana system.

These nerf ideas are including the new patch that is being added to the game, also I think my teleporter suggestion should be added as well (tl;dr add line of sight fast teleports).

 

[Triggs]

The way I see SnD right now is that it's an advanced version of rock, paper, scissors with skill and strategy added in. I agree that bow classes are very powerful right now and I hope they can be tuned, but the ghost (and dwarf to a much lesser extent) removals would unbalance the spiderweb of kit counters in the game. Imagine if Pokemon removed grass types.

What's your vision for SnD? What direction are these changes supposed to push SnD towards?
I don't mean this as an attack, I swear. I just want to know where you want SnD to go so that I can understand what purposes each nerf/removal would do to the game in your mind.

 

[Setery]

The way I see SnD right now is that it's an advanced version of rock, paper, scissors with skill and strategy added in. I agree that bow classes are very powerful right now and I hope they can be tuned, but the ghost (and dwarf to a much lesser extent) removals would unbalance the spiderweb of kit counters in the game. Imagine if Pokemon removed grass types.

What's your vision for SnD? What direction are these changes supposed to push SnD towards?
I don't mean this as an attack, I swear. I just want to know where you want SnD to go so that I can understand what purposes each nerf/removal would do to the game in your mind.

First of all, having a randomized rock paper sissors style to a competitive mode, is not good. Some games are straight up unwinnable, hence my old suggestion of seeing what kits are being played is a good idea.

The direction I want to see is less oppression from ranged kits, they have some of the highest damage in the game and can only be countered by either a really good speed push (done with kits such as ninja + rewind) or by playing a mirror style (done with playing their kits back at them). Non-mirror stratiges are not possible the bigger the game gets, there just ends up being more bow spam. Most maps are not designed with cover or large open space in mind to help ease the oppressiveness of these kits either.

Aoe crowd control is dictated by two kits alone, Burst and Explosive, and they are way too good at their jobs (even with the update). They completely control small or enclosed maps.

Ghost should also be removed to help mediate the nerf to range and the 2+ vs 1 nature of the kit. This kit is pretty bad in large games, but in medium to small games they can easily pick people off with little to no counterplay

I want this game to be balanced and **FUN** which is the main goal a game should strive for. Kits shouldn't have as many auto win conditions as they do. There should be room for counterplay.

 

[Triggs]

The direction I want to see is less oppression from ranged kits, they have some of the highest damage in the game and can only be countered by either a really good speed push (done with kits such as ninja + rewind) or by playing a mirror style (done with playing their kits back at them). Non-mirror stratiges are not possible the bigger the game gets, there just ends up being more bow spam. Most maps are not designed with cover or large open space in mind to help ease the oppressiveness of these kits either.

I want this game to be balanced and **FUN** which is the main goal a game should strive for. Kits shouldn't have as many auto win conditions as they do. There should be room for counterplay.

I'm curious as to what games are straight up "unwinnable"? Assuming numbers are even and skill level of all players is even, what situation makes kits really the deciding factor? Extreme situations where one team is all barricaders vs all troopers is one example of something that would be really annoying, but semi-unwinnable for the barricaders (though I personally could see creative outplays), but this is a really unrealistic situation.

First of all, having a randomized rock paper sissors style to a competitive mode, is not good. Some games are straight up unwinnable, hence my old suggestion of seeing what kits are being played is a good idea.

I want this game to be balanced and **FUN** which is the main goal a game should strive for. Kits shouldn't have as many auto win conditions as they do. There should be room for counterplay.

And from these two parts of the reply, am I understanding correctly that you want Search and Destroy to be a balanced competitive gamemode (I think fun should be irrelevant here because fun is extremely relative [ex. I think trolling on barri is sometimes really fun, but can make very unfun situations for a large amount of the community]).

As a final question, what do you say to the people who play this game casually and use SnD as a passive medium to hang out with their friends, and don't play this game with a large competitive drive to win?

 

[Tyrue]

Personally, I think the problem with SnD right now is the 1.9 pvp aspect. I know that this is a touchy subject because we've done what we can to make it resemble 1.8. But it just doesn't hit it. When it comes to sword vs sword, you just end up trading hits (I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I think it is because knockback is delayed and the knockback doesn't knock you back much). Plus crits don't work, you can't block, and tick invincibility. It makes it very ping dependant. (To me it also seems like it takes a lot longer to kill players, even ghosts (I think it's because of the crit bug)).

This ends up taking out a lot of the skill of sword fighting, and that could be a reason why so many people play kits that don't rely on their sword as much (ghost and bows). Bow kits require skill so you can win fights by being better than the other player.

I know that I sound like a broken record by saying this, but it is really annoying to fight against a trooper as any other melee kit because you just lose due to the sharp 1 and a jugg due to it being a jugg.

If it's not possible to change the pvp aspect of the server, then I would suggest buffing the parts of the melee kits that make them unique.
For example: Make rewind clock lower cd, ninja regens pearls every 30 seconds or so, demo fire aspect 2, reduce trident thrown regen back to 2 seconds, bleeder full diamond armor, etc.

As much as I want this server to blow up, I don't see it happening being on 1.16 and having "1.8 like combat." The biggest servers still run 1.8 because that combat is the best and most reliable. (well 1.7 is the best, but nvm that).
Don't get me wrong I love almost all the aspects of SnD on 1.16 other than the pvp aspect (swimming, better looking maps, tridents, etc).
But there is such a huge stigma behind anything that is 1.9 or later that makes people not want to give it a try.

Some of these pvp additions/bugs makes it very unrewarding to sneak around and try to assassinate a player.

Sorry if I sound like every other hot-headed rod comboing pvper, but these are my opinions.

-Tyrue

EDIT:
I do believe that short bow needs a nerf and I have 2 suggestions.

1. If it is possible, make the power 1.5
2. take off the knockback on the sword.
   • This allows a kit to sneak up on the shortbow and attack it without it getting knocked back and bow spammed.

Additionally, I believe the reason shortbow seems like the most played kit is because we are not all young, dumb, and bad at pvp anymore. We are all smart enough to realize which kit is good and which kit is great. So obviously we choose to play the better kit.

 

[Waves]

I'm going to start with the easiest thing to address, that being the bow kits. I agree they're too powerful (with the exception of pyro since it dies pretty easily) I don't know exactly how this should be dealt with, because making short bow power 1 really weakens it. EDIT: I like Tyrue's ideas.

-Medic healing does feel a bit strong. However, medics are also easily killed.

- On explosive, yes, in some situations it can be overwhelming. Mostly when there are multiple explosives. Maybe instead of reducing damage there could be some sort of limit to how many grenades are on the ground at once?

- I guess I agree with this point on dwarf, but I believe its only a problem due having one game of snd going at a time. Since your forced to wait for a whole game to play through before playing again this causes frustration.

Now for ghost.
I'm gonna struggle articulating myself here but I'm going to try anyway.

I didn't want to write a response because I get the feeling that this is just how you feel about ghost and there's no point in trying to defend it because we don't see the game the same way. I think the larger issue at play is that we are viewing the game differently. Like Triggs was saying, fun is relative. I personally see getting killed by a ghost as just part of the game. Taking away ghost would make search and destroy a different game than it is now.
There are just so many layers to this its hard to explain. Not having the ability to hop right into another round of snd I think also contributes to having a different experience with the game.
( I will also add that ghost is a counter to most archer kits and is more likely to target them before a trooper because archers are weaker)

My brain hurts too much to keep thinking about this now (literally) I have to sleep Ill try to layout my thoughts better later.

EDIT: if someone who rarely plays ghost but does not think it should be removed could chime in that would be cool.

 

[twoubles]

EDIT: if someone who rarely plays ghost but does not think it should be removed could chime in that would be cool.

Yes, hello! I personally DESPISE ghosts as I have made clear on many accounts. I'm already bad enough at PvP, I don't need an invisible angry little man w/ powerful sword coming after me, too.

However, I will say that I think removing ghost would change gameplay A LOT. I mean, think about defense. The uncertainty on whether or not an enemy is in your base or near the bomb makes gameplay a lot more interesting. Not knowing whether to push or worrying about protecting the bomb can be significant in how the game plays. Having an invisible, mobile kit is important and adds s p i c e imo. As someone who enjoys playing demo, I just think removing ghost would unfortunately make playing it a little less fun? I guess that could apply for many of the mainly "defensive" kits, not just demo. i dunno..?

All in all, I agree that ghosts are annoying as heck, but I also believe that they've become a crucial kit in a lot of gameplay, and I'm not quite sure if removing ghost would benefit or worsen the game.
I don't usually give solid opinions, so I'm sorry if it was not articulated well.

 

[Elitemaster5]

You have some interesting balancing ideas and I can see where you are coming from. First off, I personally find the bow kits to be decently balanced at the moment, besides Burst but that is getting updated. Although you may find archer kits too powerful, Ghosts provide a pretty good counter against to bow kits. Actually most Ghost kills I witness are archers getting picked off because of their weak armor.

-Shortbow in particular I don't see a problem with e damage because that kit rewards good aim and consistency. I occasionally hit shots as a Shortbow but rarely actually get the kill because I cant follow through and hit three more shots on a moving target. Unless everyone has Woaxa's aim, I don't see the need to nerf the damage.

-Burst, as we all know is getting a pretty big nerf and I can see less people using it. I would wan't to wait and see how Burst turns out after the update before suggesting another damage nerf.

-Pyro, for starters, is very vulnerable to any melee kit. I also believe that Pyro currently has a glitch that make you hit blank shots on opponents (might just be me). The Pyro's Flame 2 only lasts about 5 seconds which may seem like a long time, but keep in mind that most maps have water, you can retreat and take cover, and you can always be healed by a Medic. I feel that the Pyro's bow is literally the only thing that allows the kit to compete against other players in games because the iron sword wont get you anywhere if you have full leather armor. Maybe a different suggestion to balance the kit would be to have two arrow options like Arbolist with some kind of delay to avoid Pyro's spamming fire arrows. This would make every other arrow, idk just an idea.

-Ghost is an iconic kit that is used in almost every game of snd and I can't see it going anywhere anytime soon. You mentioned that you don't like being oppressed by long range kits and that you find dragged out poison games to be boring. Ghost is literally the kit to use to solve those problems. People who play Ghost always go on the offensive, pick off archers, and attempt to arm the bombs to keep the games moving along. I personally have never seen anyone spending their game swinging randomly to ovoid getting jumped by a gang of ghosts. It's unfortunate that you've had bad experiences fighting ghosts, but coordinated attacks from more than 2 ghosts is highly unlikely.

-Dwarf is an interesting defensive kit that can become campy but it is not invincible. Bow kits, Warper, and Explosive's nades work as pretty good counters against Dwarf. Also keep in mind that Dwarves can be over ran by a full team pushing into a base, as we saw in the Friday games where Bayzel (jugg) and Brendo (dwarf) were pushed by only about 6 players and lost. If people want to discuss possible nerfs for kit Dwarf I wouldn't be against it, but removing the kit is a bit too far.

-Explosive could possibly use a damage reduction, but I feel the RPG speed is fine as is. As for the class having too much control over maps, I only see a problem with cramped maps with distinct choke points. I don't personally feel like Explosive is too OP, I think it's just people perspective of the kit. Of course Explosive is going to be op on Wet Britches, because an entire team is going Explosive and spamming grenades, of course they are going to win. Explosive isn't necessarily a good kit because it gets a lot of kill, it is also good for holding people from pushing and controlling parts of the map. So it's no surprise that on small, cramped maps it is successful. If you wan't to balance Kit explosive, forget reducing the damage and just reduce the amount of grenades the kit has.

-Medic has received so many nerfs already i'm surprised you find this necessary. The mana system already handicaps medics enough in my opinion, and I believe that the rate at which you can be healed was reduced so it is much slower. I can see if you are having a problem with a team with multiple medics, but keep in mind that medics have their own disadvantages. Medics are known to be targeted first in every game and are left with weak gold armor, leaving them as pretty vulnerable support kits. That being said, with the new support kit being added that can heal, it would be interesting to see if teams end up stacking with healers.

I think resorting to calling for kits to be completely removed because of rare/preventable instances is a bit extreme, but it's good to see that people are this passionate about the game. Lastly, I personally don't see this snd as too much of a competitive gamemode. I honestly just play the game to hang out with the community from my childhood and have fun. After all, how competitive can Minecraft really get? The Master Po speed runs seem more competitive than snd xD. Anyways, there's my 2 cents.

 

[Smalusion]

All bow kits (minus Longbow and Arbalist) need to be reined in:
-Shortbow Power 2->Power 1
-Burst Power 1 -> no Power
-Pyro Flame 2 -> Flame 1

The direction I want to see is less oppression from ranged kits, they have some of the highest damage in the game and can only be countered by either a really good speed push (done with kits such as ninja + rewind) or by playing a mirror style (done with playing their kits back at them). Non-mirror stratiges are not possible the bigger the game gets, there just ends up being more bow spam. Most maps are not designed with cover or large open space in mind to help ease the oppressiveness of these kits either.

I can definitely see the reasoning on this. Shortbow in particular does a large amount of damage (8-9 hearts according to the wiki) in addition to its very solid armor... Would be interested in seeing more thoughts on this, but it feels like you can't 1v1 any competent Shortbow unless you can use high mobility to get within melee range or the fight is in a very short/cramped area with cover.

Power I wouldn't be that bad a nerf, either.

Would like to see more thoughts on this though.

Power I on Burst doesn't do anything

Pyro is more balanced in that the damage is over time and it has weaker armor, so I think it'd be fine to leave at Flame II for now.

Ghost should be removed, not because it's unbalanced, but because it makes gameplay extremely unfun for visible classes without access to fire. 90% of the time people will be swinging randomly just to not get ganged up on by more than 2 ghosts.

I disagree on that it should be removed, it's a very integral kit to the game I feel. It's the kit for stealth fuses. It does feel like it's the new player kit, however, and we all know how bad new players are at the kit. I can think of at least one way to reduce the pure saturation of Ghosts.

Dwarf should also be removed, the class is bad even revamps to this are unlikely to make it a fair/balanced class. All this class is useful for is drawing games to poison/nuke which isn't generally fun.

I don't disagree on this, but I think we'd want to add some other defensive kit, as this would leave Demolitions and Juggernaut as the only kits I'd classify as primarily defensive. Dwarves are just annoying to fight and usually have little impact in games beyond, as you said, drawing them out to poison or being ganged up on and killed.

Explosive should have reduced grenade and rpg damage, rpg can get a minor speed buff. High burst damage is not fun to play against. This class also has too much control on many of the maps in the game.

Grenades are easy to spot and avoid unless you're in a cramped part of a map, which is what explosive is supposed to be good against. It's one of the best kits to clear out a tight defense, other than warper, and warper often dies when it does its thing. Nerfing explosive would make for more long, campy games.
I think there is an issue where there are multiple explosives on the same team though, as they can cover mass areas with grenades, leaving nowhere safe. This is most obvious on Wet Britches, which is when half the team goes explosive. There's not a good solution I can think of right now to solve that, though. This affects other splash damage kits (Trigger, burst) as well.

Medic heals also need to be reined in, AOE healing is a bit too strong even with the mana system.

Medic feels very limited right now from my experience. ...Until I see a Medic on the other team. Then it doesn't. I think more thoughts on this one are needed.


Also, solid discussions/replies so far

 

[Lizardheart]

I agree that bow kits are quite oppressive right now. I do think that sometimes having more bow kits on one team can be the deciding factor in which team wins the game. I also don't think you need to have Woaxa-tier aim to be effective as shortbow. Even if you're not good enough to confirm kills often, just landing a shot or two on someone forces them to fall back and hide. I suppose part of the problem is how weak most of the melee kits are. Bows definitely need to be reigned in.

Gotta strongly disagree with your desire to remove Ghost. Removing one of the most popular, most enjoyed kits would be quite an unwise move. Ghost gameplay, including fighting against it, has always been one of the core components of S&D (in terms of its identity as a gamemode) and taking out the kit moves the game closer to being just another bland PvP game. Quite a few people who play this game aren't out to try to be PvP gods and enjoy the unique gameplay options that Ghost offers them, such as the various sneaky bomb-arming strats that they may employ. I don't play Ghost much, but I consider myself to be one of those who play the game to have fun with friends, not to engage in ultra-competitive Minecraft PvP. Aiming to be one of those super-competitive gamemodes would not be the right direction to take S&D in. Of course, that doesn't mean there should be unbalance in the name of fun. But Ghost really isn't unbalanced. While I find that I die to Ghosts fairly often, that's more of a me issue than a Ghost issue and I don't really get mad about it (much as I may swear at a certain person who always kills me when they're ghost).

Dwarf, I dunno. Hate to say it, but you might be right. As much as my nostalgia for the good ol' days of Dwarf makes me want to say "we need to make Dwarf good and fun to play," I really don't see any way to do it. It's useless. If you've got a Dwarf on your team, they're dead weight. Dwarf sits in a corner all game, charging up, just to get bullied to death. It's depressing to watch. I mean, maybe if there was a MAJOR revamp that basically made it something unrecognizable it could be useful, but at that point you might as well just make a new kit. Anyway, don't remove Dwarf, just give it enderpearls.

Explosive, idk, I don't have many thoughts on it. I haven't found myself thinking there are any issues with it, but I'm not gonna go into detail here.

Medic, I haven't found it to be particularly strong with the healing pool. Playing Medic it often feels weak with that healing pool, especially in big fights. Yet, it can certainly be a game changer at times. I would agree with Smal that it probably needs more observation. If anything, your point about AOE healing might be a good one. I think I could support experimenting with changing Medic to single-target healing. It would require Medics to put in a little more active effort and make gameplay more engaging for them. Also it would stop some stupid slightly wounded teammate from stealing my healing when I'm trying to pocket someone smh. But yeah Medic probably needs further study.

 

[Woaxa]

I agree with almost everything Tyrue says. Bow kits are strong on their own but melee kits being arguably worse from the new combat system makes bow kits seem even better. There is little to no skill gap on melee kits right now which is, upsetting. I personally play Shortbow because I can always improve, there will always be that one shot that I didn't hit. With any melee kit there's not much to learn besides when you should hold your W key and left click. Compared to old combat that had a significant skill ceiling.

Another reason I seem to only play Shortbow is the consistency. I don't really like playing Pyro because it seems once you light a player on fire the rest of your hits just bounce off from the invuln frames. Burst while being very strong yes I don't personally enjoy from the lost health on arrow effect. Longbow I play occasionally, I believe its the second most consistent bow kit but it's really only good in smaller games with less total archers, its just fun to mess around with. I refuse to play Arbalist 99% of the time simply because of the different projectile it throws me off way to much with how often I use the regular bow.

I'll stop playing Shortbow when a new fun yet consistent bow kit is added.
or deathgod, pls

Finally I never really liked the idea of giving Shortbow power 1 I believe it would hurt the kit too much, I've always said a power 1 and a half might hit the spot. With proper kiting and minimal misses a Shortbow can mostly keep a melee kit out of range, adding in a second enemy makes it unwinnable unless there is infinite space to run, which is never the case and on the select maps where there is a lot of open space the enemy can just go arm the bomb.

It seemed there was a lot of Shortbow/Bow kit talk here so I wanted to give my opinion as one of the "bow kit" people.

 

[Tyrue]

So I've recollected my thoughts over the night and decided to put them in a less messy format than my last post.

1. Another "problem/bug" with pvp. When you get hit you stop sprinting, even while having better sprint on or pushing your sprint button.

As for all of the kits he mentioned:

-Ghost

• Allow ghost to be accurately tracked by a compass.

-Shortbow

• Remove kb from the sword

-Burst

• From the looks of the updates, it looks like it will be underpowered

-Pyro

• Remove fire aspect 2 and make it fire aspect 1 from sword

-Dwarf

• Leave it the same

-Explosive

• If anything, a slight nerf to grenades

-Medic

• A mana system for medic could be interesting. My thought process for this makes me think of a gun from Halo on the Covenant side. Where if you use it too much too quickly it overheats and has to cool down. This prevents the infinite healing at all times.
• Or we just reimplement the medic healing cap on everyone, this would prevent games going on for forever.

 

[Kullanari]

So I’d like to share my thoughts only for the kit ghost. I don’t totally disagree with your statement on removing it.

But not permanently only temporarily. In the newest update, there was this new thing implemented about rotating kits. Im not sure how long they will be gone for I do hope its 3 days at most maybe even 5 but if its more then this argument may not really stand.

I think its okay to only remove ghost temporarily for people who main as ghost (and for new players) and I sometimes find that the best game I’ve played are the ones where there is no ghost or a number that is not too much (like around 30% of the total players playing maybe?). Ghost is fun because you don’t have to worry too much about other ghosts and you can freely walk around (well you still have to be careful to traps like landmines, arrows, grenades…) but I find it to be a kit for people who tends to be in the confort zone maybe? I may be completely wrong for sure so feel free to correct me, at least for me each time I wasn’t sure I would take ghost. What would be the point of the game if you keep playing the same kit 90% of the time? Isn’t that why theres a kit rotation in the first place? To refresh things up? I also don’t think the game would fall apart if ghost wasn’t there for like 3-5 days, but in my opinion it would make games more interesting forcing you and new players to play other kits and maybe have longer games more often.

However I do also think there is a better solution about your ghost problem without having to remove the kit itself. It would be to make a small map like Wet Bridges or Gardens (rip that one btw). It would be challenging though as it would need to fit the current standards, not become a shove 2.0 and still be playable when theres like ~30 players. I find the map Wet Bridges to be almost ghost free (when theres like at least 20 players at least) because while you may be able to walk around as a ghost without being noticed, the real challenge comes to actually making a move. Its a small map, so fewer spaces and fewer spaces means teammates are actually closer (so more teamwork which makes small maps so fun to play), so making a move on someone would likely end up in your death and if you’re lucky enough you may be able to bring then down, but a stealth kit like ghost would still be useless in such a small map because it would die easily. I also find that on small maps, the most dangerous place would be at mid in the beginning of the game since there would be so much action that you are still likely to die from all the arrows and explosions.

Of course there shouldn’t be too many small maps but so far we have only one so we could make more. Also I may sound hypocritical because I do wish ghost being gone for 3-5 days while I do play ghost but I just think my first argument could help people who mainly play ghost to explore the game further.

 

[Setery]

As to not fill up this response, I'll just be mentioning people instead of quoting.
@Triggs
When I say unwinnable, I mean the chance of winning is basically less than 10%. Putting effort into these types of games is extremely exhausting.
Trolling on barri is a perfect example of things I don't want to be in the game. That is literally 1 person having fun at the expense of others. You can balance a game and make it fun for the majority of people involved.
People who play this passively probably want to have a good time as well, I would imagine getting blown up and shot all the time, isn't fun.
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@Tyrue
I would agree that an earlier version of MC suits this game better, hopefully knockback gets updated. I think Smal said they'd look into it, but there hasn't been an update regarding that. I do think buffing the kits that COULD counter bow/range is definitely an option. I like faster rewinds, regen on pearl (and pearl on kill), even buffing porcupine to basically not take damage from range could do amazing things. Personally I still think arrow damage is just too strong in a game where the health pool is 10 hearts and for the most part everyone has around the same armor as full iron or less.
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@Waves
Personally I'd like to see a buff to pyro's armor and then a nerf to flame, that could help stop it from getting railed by ghosts and be less annoying when hit. Medics are easy targets if they're on their own, the only time they get killed in a group is if there is immediate focus fire, a ghost gets extremely lucky, or if they get pushed super hard. Medics still have a ton of survivability thanks to the 20 gapples. An idea that I've had for explosion damage is to code something called blast resistance as a bonus effect when hit by X amount of grenades or X amount of burst arrows. It wouldn't be that potent preferably, but it would help the player out a bit. Maybe if we had 2 servers running, then dwarf might not be as bad, but I still don't think it's healthy for the game. The problem I have with ghosts was stated in discord, so I'll say it here again.
"
My main issue with ghost is that it feels like it’s not your fault when you die to them 90% of the time, 3v1 especially as a squishier kit, medium low health after just killing or fighting someone, knocked off map, etc. There’s no warning to it all as that IS the kit
If those issues could somehow be reduced it might be fine
But once you lower damage, their effectiveness plummets
hence why I say to remove it, I feel like it would be near impossible to balance it in a way that is good/fun for everyone. Hard to nerf it when it is the peak of min maxing from all the kits.
"
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@twoubles
That is true that removing ghost would make defensive kits less viable, unfortunately most defensive kits just sit in base all game when they have viable support options when pushing.
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@Elitemaster5
Shortbow does reward good aim, it still takes like 4 bow shots to kill someone in iron armor if they get no crits at all, but if it lands just 1 crit, it's 3 shots. There's no avoiding that it does way too much to one of the "tankier" kits in the game. Power 1 would still keep it at 4 shots, but it won't feel as potent and it would 5 shot a trooper if they used their apples.
I addressed this earlier in my response, but I would like to see a buff to pyro's armor and reduction in flame
Coordinated ghost attacks are my primary encounters with the class. Also ghosts can only pick off bow kits in smaller games, not in bigger ones. (Also see my quoted response).
My removal for dwarf is simple, the class is bad, it only draws games out to poison, and any buffs just exacerbate the problem.
The problem with explosive, is that most maps are cramped in either mid or the bomb room. There's no avoiding that it's very good on around 75%+ of the maps.
Medics are honestly tanky, gold armor doesn't mean no armor. They also have 20 gapples which means they basically only die from burst damage (not the kit) and not prolonged damage.
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@Smalusion
I'd rather see buffs to ninja to take over the role of ghost, they have a similar kit setup and similar goals. I think ghost players should give this kit a chance to see what I'm talking about. Ninja can play the support/clean up role, but this is done in a way that the person on the receiving end can understand. When it comes to ghosts doing this, it feels unavoidable.
I do feel like Jugg is a superior version of dwarf as it's more versatile and is immediately tanky where dwarf isn't.
There's another potential nerf for explosive, and that is giving grenades sound effects either when thrown or hitting the ground. This would help people who turn corners not expecting a pile of grenades to be sitting there. Also see another suggestion in my response to Waves.
That's actually the problem with medic, they're only a problem when 1 of them exist. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________
@Lizardheart
The problem with ghost is that a group can easily overwhelm you when you do the most minor actions. This is like suggesting someone to just hole up next to bomb for the whole game just to say you died defending bomb instead of saying that you died by moving 5 blocks in a direction. Getting punished for the smallest things are the most annoying aspect.
Seeing single target heals would work in bigger games, but in smaller games it could make duos too strong like burst and medic.
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@Woaxa
Seeing some changes to the plugin's combat would be a nice if done properly.
I also see the issue with pyro's arrows, it might be a server side issue though.
Power 1.5 still would be too strong, Power 1 alone is already strong enough.
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@Tyrue (again)
I do like some of your suggestions however I still think Burst will be good, just at long range and not short.
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@Kullanari
If we had kit rotations like every week, I think it could spice the game up and make it harder to find a meta that's oppressive.
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@everyonementionedhere
Obviously we don't have to remove kits, things can be done to improve the state of the game. The current meta right now is to just spam range and heal which means explosive, bow, and medic. Dwarf provides little to the game. Ghost is just there to bully people and arm bomb.