Medic Mana Rework

Setery

Active member
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
139
My proposal to reworking medic is to have the exp bar range from 0-100

A heal from a medic will cost 20 mana (meaning at full charge, 5 heals)

The mana regen will be 2 mana per second (variable to change based on feedback) which = 1 heal per 10 seconds

However, medics can gain 10 mana every time they hit a player, 2 hits = 1 heal


This system allows medic to be more *skillful* and will reward players for surviving, rather than those who camp or sit behind their team. This also prevents spam healing.
 

Woaxa

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May 25, 2020
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114
I'm all for changing the numbers for the heal pool but I'm not a fan of adding pvp as a main aspect to Medic. I think Medic's skill should lie in managing heals, not combat.
 

Setery

Active member
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
139
I'm all for changing the numbers for the heal pool but I'm not a fan of adding pvp as a main aspect to Medic. I think Medic's skill should lie in managing heals, not combat.
it's not designed to go out and combat things, it just rewards it and boosts heals when there is a push
 

Mythless

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May 29, 2020
Messages
100
it's not designed to go out and combat things, it just rewards it and boosts heals when there is a push
I think I'm having the same opinions as @Woaxa, in that I love the changes just not the pvp part of it. I get what you're trying to do with the mechanic, but it just conflicts too much with the kit's main objective. Instead, I think something that correlates with its supportive role will do better:

After a certain amount of time of not sustaining any damage (I think somewhere between 10~15 seconds?), the medic's mana regen rate is increased by 2 per second. This can stack up to maybe like 2 times for a potential total of 6 energy per second. If the medic takes any damage (this can be from either enemy players or the environment ex. fall damage), the stack counter completely resets. This encourages the medic to play full supportive and prioritize being on the backline like they're meant to be, but they also have to be skillful by evading any damage possible to maximize their supportive capabilities. Even if the medic is covered by meat shields, it takes literally just a single fist punch from an invisible kit or a stray arrow to reset their counter. Other kits that inflict damage-over-time effects like Venom and Pyro will become especially viable against medics as new counterplay to this mechanic
 
Last edited:

Setery

Active member
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
139
I think I'm having the same opinions as @Woaxa, in that I love the changes just not the pvp part of it. I get what you're trying to do with the mechanic, but it just conflicts too much with the kit's main objective. Instead, I think something that correlates with its supportive role will do better:

After a certain amount of time of not sustaining any damage (I think somewhere between 10~15 seconds?), the medic's mana regen rate is increased by 2 per second. This can stack up to maybe like 2 times for a potential total of 6 energy per second. If the medic takes any damage (this can be from either enemy players or the environment ex. fall damage), the stack counter completely resets. This encourages the medic to play full supportive and prioritize being on the backline like they're meant to be, but they also have to be skillful by evading any damage possible to maximize their supportive capabilities. Even if the medic is covered by meat shields, it takes literally just a single fist punch from an invisible kit or a stray arrow to reset their counter. Other kits that inflict damage-over-time effects like Venom and Pyro will become especially viable against medics as new counterplay to this mechanic
Maybe, still think that mana regen might be too high I’d like to cap it at 4.
 

shadowstarcat

Artist
Joined
May 25, 2020
Messages
24
I think there's a lot I want to say and it takes me a lot of time to read over what other people say and organize my own thoughts, which is why I wish there was a general medic thread/post so people could discuss the different aspects and proposals to medic all at once instead of across separate posts but alas.

To preface my general thoughts: I'm not against medic getting any changes, so long as it doesn't negatively affect the overall experience of a person playing medic.

This is where I think balancing medic becomes hard.

In relation to your proposal, I think I need some clarification on what you define as 1 heal. To my knowledge right now, a medic heal (1 click) is 2.5-3 hearts. To cap that at 5 every 50 seconds means a medic will get to heal around 15 hearts, so amounting to like a person and a half(spread out if there are multiple people in range), and then wait almost a minute in order to do so again? Will admit I have some confusion here.

Onto the medic gaining 10 mana per hit: I'd have to agree with @Woaxa and @Mythless here.
I understand medic seems weird in that it has an iron sword, but it's purely for self-defense and not to encourage medics to go out into the fray. I do not think medic should be rewarded at all for engaging in combat. It's just a different playstyle altogether compared to other kits and should maintain a completely different focus.

I also don't understand how this mechanic would reward a medic for "surviving" as while it would push medics to engage in combat, that medic would certainly have no guarantee of surviving that encounter, especially with how vulnerable it is in armor and how it is generally targeted because of its important role. I'd have to agree with previous points that medic's skill should lie in how one manages their healing and not in pvp encounters.

To that effect, I'm more of a fan of Mythless' proposal on controlling timing and rates. Forgive me for my tf2 brain, but his idea reminded me of how medic heal rates are calculated there.
1604982709516.png
Tf2's medic typically heals one person at a time, with the seconds being the time since the person you're healing last took damage. It rewards the medic's teammates for managing themselves and the amount of damage they take while still keeping the medic active at all times, as the medic doesn't have to wait for a cooldown or have times of inactivity in general.
Obviously I'd imagine this method to be very hard to implement in SnD especially since medic can heal multiple teammates, but Mythless' idea of having the medic manage their own safety and heal rates sounds like a neat avenue to explore, and I thought it was worth bringing up this healing mechanic here anyway in case any other ideas can come out of it.


In general I have a lot of thoughts on medic. I've glanced at the other threads on it but I'll need more time to respond to those. I like the discussions I've been seeing so far though 👍
I understand a main concern right now is that a team with a medic will typically beat a team without one, but to be fair, I'm not really sure a game similar to this exists where a team without support wouldn't typically be beaten by a team with support as compositions do matter to an extent.

How do you keep medic's power in check without affecting the playing experience?
As someone who played medic religiously on previous iterations of SnD, I'm sad to say some of the previous changes to it made it unenjoyable to me.

The old 25 heart healing cap made medic virtually useless during endgame times, as the weak regen it gave once a player reached their cap felt negligible, and medics had no other options once the cap was reached.

The slowing of the healing rate was just weird. The timing was quite noticeable to me personally and honestly just felt like lag sometimes, where I'd click to heal someone and then have to wait around them in order for them to actually be healed, except when they ran away faster than the heal could be given...

I'm generally not a fan of cooldowns, especially when games of SnD last just minutes. While kits like Rewind depend on the cooldown aspect for balance and strategy for itself, I feel a cooldown on medic punishes the entire playstyle and team. Burst has a similar issue where it has to wait to regen in order to continue to participate, but letting it heal too fast lets it become too powerful. Hard to say how these issues can be hammered out without completely taking away the cooldown/waiting aspect of the kits entirely.

All I can really ask is that whatever balance is proposed/introduced doesn't punish a player for playing as a medic. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Onett

Well-known member
Joined
May 25, 2020
Messages
162
I think there's a lot I want to say and it takes me a lot of time to read over what other people say and organize my own thoughts, which is why I wish there was a general medic thread/post so people could discuss the different aspects and proposals to medic all at once instead of across separate posts but alas.

To preface my general thoughts: I'm not against medic getting any changes, so long as it doesn't negatively affect the overall experience of a person playing medic.

This is where I think balancing medic becomes hard.

In relation to your proposal, I think I need some clarification on what you define as 1 heal. To my knowledge right now, a medic heal (1 click) is 2.5-3 hearts. To cap that at 5 every 50 seconds means a medic will get to heal around 15 hearts, so amounting to like a person and a half(spread out if there are multiple people in range), and then wait almost a minute in order to do so again? Will admit I have some confusion here.

Onto the medic gaining 10 mana per hit: I'd have to agree with @Woaxa and @Mythless here.
I understand medic seems weird in that it has an iron sword, but it's purely for self-defense and not to encourage medics to go out into the fray. I do not think medic should be rewarded at all for engaging in combat. It's just a different playstyle altogether compared to other kits and should maintain a completely different focus.

I also don't understand how this mechanic would reward a medic for "surviving" as while it would push medics to engage in combat, that medic would certainly have no guarantee of surviving that encounter, especially with how vulnerable it is in armor and how it is generally targeted because of its important role. I'd have to agree with previous points that medic's skill should lie in how one manages their healing and not in pvp encounters.

To that effect, I'm more of a fan of Mythless' proposal on controlling timing and rates. Forgive me for my tf2 brain, but his idea reminded me of how medic heal rates are calculated there.
View attachment 472
Tf2's medic typically heals one person at a time, with the seconds being the time since the person you're healing last took damage. It rewards the medic's teammates for managing themselves and the amount of damage they take while still keeping the medic active at all times, as the medic doesn't have to wait for a cooldown or have times of inactivity in general.
Obviously I'd imagine this method to be very hard to implement in SnD especially since medic can heal multiple teammates, but Mythless' idea of having the medic manage their own safety and heal rates sounds like a neat avenue to explore, and I thought it was worth bringing up this healing mechanic here anyway in case any other ideas can come out of it.


In general I have a lot of thoughts on medic. I've glanced at the other threads on it but I'll need more time to respond to those. I like the discussions I've been seeing so far though 👍
I understand a main concern right now is that a team with a medic will typically beat a team without one, but to be fair, I'm not really sure a game similar to this exists where a team without support wouldn't typically be beaten by a team with support as compositions do matter to an extent.

How do you keep medic's power in check without affecting the playing experience?
As someone who played medic religiously on previous iterations of SnD, I'm sad to say some of the previous changes to it made it unenjoyable to me.

The old 25 heart healing cap made medic virtually useless during endgame times, as the weak regen it gave once a player reached their cap felt negligible, and medics had no other options once the cap was reached.

The slowing of the healing rate was just weird. The timing was quite noticeable to me personally and honestly just felt like lag sometimes, where I'd click to heal someone and then have to wait around them in order for them to actually be healed, except when they ran away faster than the heal could be given...

I'm generally not a fan of cooldowns, especially when games of SnD last just minutes. While kits like Rewind depend on the cooldown aspect for balance and strategy for itself, I feel a cooldown on medic punishes the entire playstyle and team. Burst has a similar issue where it has to wait to regen in order to continue to participate, but letting it heal too fast lets it become too powerful. Hard to say how these issues can be hammered out without completely taking away the cooldown/waiting aspect of the kits entirely.

All I can really ask is that whatever balance is proposed/introduced doesn't punish a player for playing as a medic. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I think this idea would solve a lot of problems that medic has.

It would definitely have to be simplified though;
here's an idea of how I think it could work:

There are two seperate healing rates
, one for when someone is "in combat" and one for when someone is "out of combat".

If you have received damage from a player in the last 3 seconds, you will be "in combat" and you will only receive half of the healing you would normally receive. If you are "out of combat" you would receive normal healing. Regardless of the state of the player that the medic is healing, mana cost will remain the same.

This new mechanic would fix a lot of problems medic has, that aren't game breaking, but I think addressing them would help make the game more balanced and fun. Here are some key issues this change would fix:


1.) Nerf Medic in combat
These changes would encourage teams with medics to play more strategically and also level the playing field more once the fight begins. It doesn't take away the fun out of grouping up around your medic and plowing through the enemy team, but it does give the team without one a chance to clutch a win.

Playing without a medic when the enemy team has one will leave you at an understandable disadvantage, but I think these changes would allow for a team without a medic to still win if they play smart.

2.) Burst + Medic combo
While this combo has been nerfed in the past, I still feel like it is quite oppressive, especially if someone has multiple pocket medics following them.

Instead of making a niche change to the medic + burst combo to prevent multiple medics from empowering burst too much, I think this change would be a better way to indirectly nerf this strategy, as self damage taken from burst will put the burst player into an "in combat" state.

3.) Medic allows people to play very reckless and still win the game.
Overall, I feel like medic allows people to play pretty poorly without much penalty. People can just sit on the frontlines of battle and tank arrow shots because they know they have a medic. While I feel like this is just a natural result of medic being a very good healing kit, I think more strategic play should be rewarded.

Additionally, I feel like this change would help reduce the amount of times we face stalemate situations, as it would allow teams that play smart to gain a small but important advantage.

In Summary:

This change would...
-Nerf medic IN combat so teams without one can have more of a chance against a team with a med
-Encourage and reward smarter play from teammates
-Introduce more potential for strategic play in SnD
 

Smalusion

😳
Administrator
Joined
May 25, 2020
Messages
97
I think this idea would solve a lot of problems that medic has.

It would definitely have to be simplified though;
here's an idea of how I think it could work:

There are two seperate healing rates
, one for when someone is "in combat" and one for when someone is "out of combat".

If you have received damage from a player in the last 3 seconds, you will be "in combat" and you will only receive half of the healing you would normally receive. If you are "out of combat" you would receive normal healing. Regardless of the state of the player that the medic is healing, mana cost will remain the same.

This new mechanic would fix a lot of problems medic has, that aren't game breaking, but I think addressing them would help make the game more balanced and fun. Here are some key issues this change would fix:


1.) Nerf Medic in combat
These changes would encourage teams with medics to play more strategically and also level the playing field more once the fight begins. It doesn't take away the fun out of grouping up around your medic and plowing through the enemy team, but it does give the team without one a chance to clutch a win.

Playing without a medic when the enemy team has one will leave you at an understandable disadvantage, but I think these changes would allow for a team without a medic to still win if they play smart.

2.) Burst + Medic combo
While this combo has been nerfed in the past, I still feel like it is quite oppressive, especially if someone has multiple pocket medics following them.

Instead of making a niche change to the medic + burst combo to prevent multiple medics from empowering burst too much, I think this change would be a better way to indirectly nerf this strategy, as self damage taken from burst will put the burst player into an "in combat" state.

3.) Medic allows people to play very reckless and still win the game.
Overall, I feel like medic allows people to play pretty poorly without much penalty. People can just sit on the frontlines of battle and tank arrow shots because they know they have a medic. While I feel like this is just a natural result of medic being a very good healing kit, I think more strategic play should be rewarded.

Additionally, I feel like this change would help reduce the amount of times we face stalemate situations, as it would allow teams that play smart to gain a small but important advantage.

In Summary:

This change would...
-Nerf medic IN combat so teams without one can have more of a chance against a team with a med
-Encourage and reward smarter play from teammates
-Introduce more potential for strategic play in SnD
Of the Medic ideas floating around right now, I feel this has a lot of potential. It also gives ranged and damage over time kits an extra advantage in lowering heals.

Plus it's super simple, though maybe a visual indicator for the Medic could be nice. Maybe make the Health% by the player's name red when in combat?
 

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